Interview with Barbara Byrd-Bennett and Mohsen Anvari February 2, 2003 WVIZ Web Exclusive Interview By: Julie Henry (January 13, 2003) Julie Henry met with Barbara Byrd-Bennett, CEO, Cleveland Municipal School District and Mohsen Anvari, Dean, Weatherhead School of Management, CWRU to discuss the role education plays in the success of our local economy. JH Some people might say, "If we're looking at economic development and changing our economy, why should we even talk about K-12 education. What difference does it make to our economy?” BBB Oh I think it's very clear that without an educated workforce, there is no economic development. I mean it sounds terribly simplistic. That would mean we've got to prepare our young people for not just higher education, but young people for the new technologies, the new job market that is opening up. Education will not only help with preparation of technical skills and abilities, but also with civic responsibility. I mean, there's a whole ethos that education drives in terms of economic development. I don't know of any successful urban community where there is not an educated populace, and where education is not at the core priority. And lastly I would add that people do not move to a place where the education system is not doing well and where kids are not going to graduate and have options about going on to higher education or going into technical fields. I think it's at the foundation of the entire development. JH Mohsen, I had read that if you're going to look at one single factor for economic success, it's the number of people in your population who have graduated from college. Would you agree with that? MA I think the broader issue, and Barbara has spoken about that, is that if there's a lesson from the 90s that we take away about economic growth, is that the two factors that really propel a region's growth are an educated task force and innovation, that comes from R&D that's based in research and that ties into higher education. I think the numbers in terms of the kind of income that people can expect depending on the level of education are very clear, with the K-12 situation, we talk about a 40% difference in the kind of income people can have coming out of high school or not coming out of high school. The same kind of numbers, kind of apply at the graduate degree and college degree level, post K-12. In terms of our region, and when you look at some of the statistics with college education, we're really, really behind. If you compare us, for instance, to San Francisco County, to have this same proportion of college graduates, we need to have another 200,000 people in the Greater Cleveland area to have bachelor's degrees. And again, while no one has a direct correlation between these and can prove these relationships with scientific certainty, it is very clear that education is key, it's the infrastructure of the knowledge economy, the same way that roads were and that canals were. If you want to succeed in the knowledge economy, the key is without a doubt education. JH Why is that, why is there such a strong connection between an educated workforce and the economy? MA Well first of all there's the issue of having a workforce that's well trained. I remember I think it was a year ago that the CEO of Hewlett Packard was talking to government officials, and she went on to say forget about your tax abatements and tax breaks. Give me an educated task force. There was a survey done here I think right before the mayoral elections. And some two thirds of the members of the Council of Smaller Enterprise here in Cleveland, they think the issue of a well-trained work force here in Cleveland is a serious concern. So first of all there's the issue of having who can occupy these high content knowledge content jobs in the economy, and the related notion to that is the whole notion of innovation. And innovation comes from an educated workforce and people who are exposed to a higher education. JH We have this statistic, though, that only about 30% of our population now has that college degree. Why are those numbers so low, especially compared to other regions? What's different about our region that we haven't been turning out the college graduates? BBB I think one of them has to do with community priorities. When I arrived here, we had just done a study, a poll and a bunch of focus groups, etc. And it's very, very interesting. In that poll in 1997, over two thirds of the parents whose children come to my schools thought that technology, a second language, and algebra were not important cores of study. It's very, very important. It tells you where the thinking is in terms of what are the priorities for economic development as well. And they said, well you know, with a high school diploma or just if my youngster gets out of high school in the mill. He or she can get a job in really what we would consider now as we move into the 21st century jobs that may no longer exist in the forms where we knew them. Recently, we did a poll. Technology is important is important. Algebra is important. We still don't think a foreign language is terribly important. So I think that it is also the part of changing the mindset of our community about the priorities that are going to lead us into a future that we don't clearly know yet. And that clearly dovetails on the notion of innovation. What it is that we need to be special, different, competitive in the economic market. JH So we need to boost the number of high school graduates, and then also the ones who are going on to attend college. What are the graduation rates right now both in Cleveland and Cuyahoga County? BBB The graduation rate is abysmally low. And we're not satisfied at all. It has moved about 6 percentage points since our administration. We're at 39% just about of our children graduating. That's cohort graduation, children who begin in the ninth grade and actually graduate in 12th. So our strategy over the past two years has been slightly different. We want to maintain the cohorts who come in. But also make certain that any child who in the 12th grade does graduate. Last year, for example, 90% of our 12th graders graduated and 66% of those youngsters went on to two year or four year higher education. That's significant in terms of this discussion. And lastly I would add, we need to figure out ways in which the huge comprehensive high schools that we have are transformed. They're no longer valid, really, in terms of preparing our young people. So a high school of 2300 children becomes a small community. How in fact do we break those schools down in terms of smaller components so that they are, in fact, interest focused and also theme based that drive the kinds of young people and the kinds of thinking that we'll need in the future. MA The other fact that affects low graduation rates is the amount of investment that this state makes in higher education. The tuition fees, the last numbers I looked at, it's about a thousand dollars higher than the national average. Now there is a University of Michigan study that says for every 100-dollar increase in these levels, we lose one percent of the enrollment. So you just translate this immediately and we've got 10 percent less, and this is figures for public universities in the state, are lower than what they should be. And this also applies to universities like mine, which are private, the way they are perceived by society and the way they are perceived by where the money is in this state. I think that if you could improve that and people could really start looking at it as investments into the region, I think we could turn this around. JH What can businesses do? They need the workers who are well educated, what can they do to get involved to ensure that those workers will be here in this region? BBB Well I think that we do have a very, very strategic, very focused, I think there's still more we can do, I do want them to write their checks to us. But there are other things they can do. For example, we have a partnership with National City. It's called the Success Tech Academy where we've established on the campus of Tri-C a school that prepares our young people in the high tech area. We have an early college program where we're saying if you're really looking at your best and your brightest, young people can complete high school education in not four, but three years with an immediate link and transference right into Cleveland State University. And then again, in terms of some of the other ways in which our corporate partners work with us, it's to develop and train our principals. My principals are like CEOs of small subsidiaries. They have, many of them, a budget of about five million dollars. And we no longer can use the same skill set as principals. We need to manage it as a small subsidiary. So our corporate partners have engaged with us developing programs to train principals to be better managers. MA And I think this notion is very key. The organizations all throughout our country in various fields of endeavor are now depending more and more on management education. And the school system is one. And that's one area, for example, where we think the Weatherhead School of Management can really play an important role. So far we've had about, the last numbers I looked at, about 600 administrators from the school system that have gone through our executive education programs. We at the Weatherhead School have very clearly stated in our strategic plan that economic development of the region is important and one of our six strategic priorities. And to deliver on that, we have to work, among others, with the school system. Whether it's through executive program, whether it's through partnering in the area of entrepreneurship. I know one of your priorities, Barbara, is to consider entrepreneurship in business as one of the hallmarks of some of the schools you're setting up. And that's exactly where we are extremely strong. It's an asset to this region that we like to put to work through the schools system. I look forward to considering ideas with Barbara in that area. BBB Yes, that's going to be fun. JH What is the importance of entrepreneurship and the role of small businesses as our economy is changing? MA Well I mean, This is a national phenomenon, it fact it's a global phenomenon that given the (CU of MA) technological changes that have taken place and the regulatory changes that have taken place, we are witnesses the formation of new companies all around. So that brings in this whole notion of entrepreneurship for new startups, as well as entrepreneurship in terms of large companies being more creative. And we think that as our economy is going through this transition, this whole notion of being able to support an entrepreneurial effort in our region is extremely important. And that's another one of our strategic priorities. In fact of our six strategic priorities at the Weatherhead School, one is entrepreneurship and one is regional economic development and the two are very well connected. And we do have a lot of assets that are already in place in the service of the community that can bear on this objective. BBB Our system runs on a parallel track. As we move into a capital program over the next 10 years in our city, we will see 51 brand new school buildings. What do they look like? This is really an opportunity to make sure that not only thematic piece in terms of curriculum development drives and works toward supplying young people in the new economy, but the buildings have to be conducive to that kind of learning. We've got a school that we're opening on University Circle, John Hay, one of the schools there that will accommodate 400 youngsters in exactly what you're talking about, preparing young people in the process of developing small business. A second is the medical field, in biomedical studies. What is out there? Our children very often don't know. I mean most of us think medical and think "I'm going to be a doctor or a nurse." There are so many other fields out there that people don't know. So in partnership with the Cleveland Clinic, as well as CWRU, we'll be developing that field. And then the third school there is one of the arts. I mean, any society that is also not prepared to look at the cultural arts and sustain the arts is a society that, as I think we've learned from history, doesn't survive. So that, for us at the school system, is another terribly important development, and what better place than University Circle with the resources there. JH Mohsen, you mentioned the strategic plan at Weatherhead. And I noticed when I read through some of the points that there really is an effort now to reach out into the community to affect change in Northeastern Ohio. Do you think that could have been an area that was lacking in the past? Is this a shift in focus? Or is this a continuation of a focus that was already there? MA I think in fairness all universities have come to realize that they should connect with their communities a lot more than they have done in the past. And I don't think we have been an exception. What you witness at the universities, especially with our new president coming on board, is a lot of effort to connect to the community. You mentioned our strategic plan. The inauguration of President Hundert is at the end of the month (January). And there's a whole full-day colloquium where presidents of major universities are going to come here, along with the mayors of their towns. And they're going to talk about what is the impact of the university on those cities. Another area is tech transfer, which is fundamental to the growth of our region. And the university has made tremendous efforts over the last couple of years to put in the infrastructure to make entrepreneurs aware of the inventions and the patents that are produced at the university and help commercialize that. I think we are all realizing, and particularly we at Case Western, realize that for us to be a foremost research university in the country, we've got to be in a thriving region. And we're going to be all our best to make sure that we can contribute to that goal. JH Do you both think that one problem we may have experienced in the past is just a disconnect where universities are in their own world, education is in its world, business is in its own sphere, and finally we are starting to see a coming together toward our common goals? Or is that not accurate. BBB I think so. And I don't think it's unique to Cleveland and I don't think it's unique to our region. I really believe that it is something that we find almost universally throughout our nation. And I think it's been evolutionary that the time is right and each of us in our own silos has recognized the importance of the connectivity. And that's why you see suddenly, I believe, the emerging of what appears to be people reaching out. And I think that it has been evolutionary. And now it's necessary for our mutual survival. I mean, our school district is the third largest employer in Cuyahoga County. We are the largest school district in the state of Ohio servicing and training or teaching over two thirds of the entire state student population. That's tremendously significant and a tremendously important responsibility that can't be left in a silo, because the connectivity is essential in order for the whole to be successful. MA If I may add two thoughts to this, I think if you start looking at it in the larger perspective, there was a time in this country when we thought education up to the eighth grade was enough. Now we've gone K-12. Now maybe we should ask ourselves given the knowledge economy that we are in, maybe we shouldn't think of K-12, maybe we should think of K-16 and think about K-20 and make the relationships seamless. The other thing is what the school systems are facing are no different than what the universities are facing in terms of major issues. We have issues with accountability, with efficiency, dealing with our stakeholders, and maybe more fundamental than all of that, dealing with issues of what is the balance between a utilitarian education that gets someone a job versus values that makes our students better citizens and lets them grow. These issues are all connected, and I think in a certain way we're reaching a point where the line between grade 12 and first year of college is getting a little blurred. And the key words I think would be seamless, connected, the term you used Barbara. And I think that's the direction we're going to see all across the country and not only in Cleveland. JH You mentioned San Francisco such a tremendously greater number of college graduates than Northeast Ohio. Is there anything that we can learn from areas like that, lessons that we can apply to our area as we try then to boost the number of college graduates? Things that they're doing that we could be doing here. MA Well money is one of them. And let's be very specific about it. When the citizens of a region come to understand the fundamental importance of the health of the education system to their economic well being, they will invest in it, whether that's through their tax dollars, or whether it's through their donations, they'll contribute to this. Let's talk about one example that affects by shop. When I look at the endowment at the Weatherhead School of Management, which is about $76 million, and I compare it to the endowment of the business school at Stanford University, which sits at close to $450 million, there you have a message. Yes of course they had their tech boom and all that. But the contributions that were made were a function of understanding, I guess, of the importance of that business school to that region. And you can extend it to other schools. MA I think investment is important. And that will only happen when the citizens come to realize the relevance of education to their own economic well-being? JH And then demand it from their law makers, I mean how can we as individual citizens start making some of these individual changes within the educational system? BBB Well clearly from the K-12 perspective, we would simply look to the Derolf decision, which says that yes, all school districts in the state of Ohio from K-12, the funding is disproportionate, inequitable, and unfair, and sent it back to the legislature to make some decisions. Do I look forward to seeing any kind of an increase in our budget that will allow us to move in the direction in which we need to move, no. And so what we require and what we depend upon is going back to the citizens for something we call a levy. And we've got to, we've just finished with a bond, a capital improvement plan where we've asked the citizens. So the community really has to begin to take a look at what are our priorities and where do we need to invest, and I think that education in the seamless K-16 is a very high priority. And yes, it is through our elected officials that we need to make that noise. We need to say this is our priority, this is the urgency, this is in fact the line that will be drawn to create a tale of two cities. There will clearly be a tale of the haves and the have not’s. Money is important. It's not important to people who have it. But if you don't have money, it's very important. But I do agree that once money is giving, systems need to be held accountable. Systems need to publicly disclose how those funds are being used. And they need to be directed wisely and at the place of contact, which I call the 125 buildings, which we have that are the schools in our city. MA One of the key factors for the growth of a region is for us to have healthy inner cities that attract people. And one cannot underestimate the importance of having healthy school systems, from K-12, in the city of Cleveland to attract the kind of talent that we want to bring in for our industry. It's phenomenal. And I think those who just simply think in terms of putting parcels of land together to put housing up, which is very important, those who think in terms of the convention center, which I think is critical, should also keep in mind that a key element in attracting the kind of talent we want to this region is really a healthy K-12 school system. We have an opportunity to physically fund the structures. But we've now got to think in terms of what goes on in those buildings and the investments that we make within those buildings so that younger talented people, highly educated people come here and look forward to sending their children to these schools. JH With the changes that are taking place and let's say that tomorrow everyone gets behind education, we're going to start investing in it, we're going to start working to make K-12 and higher education in Northeast Ohio the best it can be, realistically, how long before we can really see some of these changes, then, if we all got behind it tomorrow? BBB Well I think that most of us are the product of the Pepsi generation and we want to see it tomorrow. It simply doesn't happen that way. The research that I'm most familiar with is the research that says it takes minimally, minimally five years before you begin to go, Hmm, things are changing. Because it's deep rooted and sustainable change that you want, not a quick fix. You want not just a boom in graduation rates or a boom in people moving into the city and then leaving at the end of four years saying it just hasn't been sustained. So to answer the question, it's a long way of saying it's about process, it's about sustainability, and minimally somewhere between five and seven years before you begin to see it. BBB I also believe that it is very, very important that we take a look not only at volunteerism but a return to political activism. So I think that people who are not in the schools can sit at home and write to their legislators, write to their elected officials to express the need and the concern they have as individuals for the education of their community. And I would say that it's not just the city of Cleveland. It is surrounding communities as well. Without an educated populace, 77,000 children who attend our system may not be productive. They will always know how to drive and they will always ride the RTA. So no community is safe and we've got to make the core, the nucleus safe in order for surrounding communities to be safe as well and to be productive.